Who's in the #3 club?

Half drunk what the heck?!



Who's all lost #3 ....please sstand up!



me me me me me me


and cant seem to find the dam thing either :D





?

i am THE founding member as far back as 1996. got out of the club in 1998 and havent looked back.

Hey John.

I called you 3 times in the last week to get your opinion on #3. You say its oil starvation.... What can be done to fix this problem? (noticed you are online! hehe)

Thanks

Patrick

*stands up*

Farts :confused: :o

Hopefully not joining the club but the way my **** has been......I guess I better pre-register!

There is one at Woodhouse, not sure of the cause or if its forced induction.

Close. #4 here. Just had to be different. :(

Hey John.

I called you 3 times in the last week to get your opinion on #3. You say its oil starvation.... What can be done to fix this problem? (noticed you are online! hehe)

Thanks

Patrick


Did you leave your credit card number with your message...?

Did you leave your credit card number with your message...?

LMAO!!! :D :eek:

Did you leave your credit card number with your message...?

Dang it! I knew I missed something hehehe j/k john :p

Ill just ask Chris and dan tomorrow then...

Stand up and take a bow! I'm in the 3 club, now too! :)
I recently (the Texas Mile) lost the #3 piston and rod. The piston was siezed in the bore and the rod broke causing damage to 2 cylinder sleeves, the oil galley, the side of the block and the oil pan.

There is a definite pattern here...that's ****ed up.

Stand up and take a bow! I'm in the 3 club, now too! :)
I recently (the Texas Mile) lost the #3 piston and rod. The piston was siezed in the bore and the rod broke causing damage to 2 cylinder sleeves, the oil galley, the side of the block and the oil pan.

For those still running the STS you need to be careful. Looks like it's only a matter of time. :(

Home many miles did you have on yours with the STS SC?

if this is a oiling issue, is there not a way to limit the flow to the top of the motor , keeping more of the pressure in the bottom half?? myself i would prefer to loose valvegear than loose a rod!! a friend of mine is a builder ( taught by les davenport, those of you who know top fuel may know of him) i recall him mentioning haveing larger clearances in the crank journals/rod bearings and running oil restrictors to the gallerys running to the top end , to keep the pressure in the bottem end. i'm not a machinist / builder so i can't give any specs but i will try and see bob in the next few days and ask him.( p.s. he has a 70 swinger with a N.A. 440 runnin 10:8s' on pump gas , he knows his stuff when it comes to motors)

Stand up and take a bow! I'm in the 3 club, now too! :)
I recently (the Texas Mile) lost the #3 piston and rod. The piston was siezed in the bore and the rod broke causing damage to 2 cylinder sleeves, the oil galley, the side of the block and the oil pan.


Can you give us some more info? Boost levels, were you driving or on a dyno, was the meth running? This **** scares me.

Smoke

I know ROE was working on a new set of pistons. The stockers are PAPER thin. :eek: :rolleyes: I saw the new ones when I was up there about 4-5 weeks ago. They are nice and BEEFY. :cool: Shiny too! :D

I know ROE was working on a new set of pistons. The stockers are PAPER thin. :eek: :rolleyes: I saw the new ones when I was up there about 4-5 weeks ago. They are nice and BEEFY. :cool: Shiny too! :D

Let me just say, I hope I don't have to see any of them... :eek: :D :cool: ;)

OK so who's lost the #3 or #4 due to STS.

1. Big Asp
2. Sprite
3. SC vette
4. Ram from Hell

How many kits were sold?
How ****ed am I?

FlyingLow..I thought you had the Paxton??!! you have the sts?

OK so who's lost the #3 or #4 due to STS.

1. Big Asp
2. Sprite
3. SC vette
4. Ram from Hell

How many kits were sold?
How ****ed am I?

I would say that it's kinda like be partially pregnant...you either are or you're not...the trend here suggests to me that you may be...but that's just me.

FlyingLow..I thought you had the Paxton??!! you have the sts?


STS, couldn't you smell my pistons burning?

Hey dont forget me!

but im not STS, but I did finally find out what happened to my piston, had it analyzed, and lets say it was nt tunning, But I cant tell why till the truck is back in my possesion for obvious reasons.

STS, couldn't you smell my pistons burning? Should change the name from STS to STD.

Smoke, read this post....may want to see if you can get this done....SVS Turbo and Boomer both agree this is how it should be done.




Originally Posted by SVS Turbo
We tried to work in conjunction with STS in order to come out with a kit for the Vipers.

Basically we bought a universal kit and only used the turbo and return oil pump. Everything else we didn't use and installed higher quality fittings, lines and hoses. We made all our own piping etc

We upgraded the fuel system by making it a return system, added 55# side feed injectors, 044 Bosch pump, regulator

The engine is stock except for T&D's and Manley push rods. 98 GTS

Motec is installed for engine management.

We learned a few things while fabricating and developing this system. We used a GTS 76 turbo (the biggest we could fit without cutting into the trunk or dragging on the ground) that we ended up making 640rwhp and 690rwtq @ 7psi on 93 oct. through a 2.5 inch pipe all the way to the intercooler (1500cfm) and 2.5 out of the intercooler opening into 3 up into the intake.

What we found was that at the turbo we were seeing twice the amount of boost than at the manifold. The pressure drop was cut in half. The turbo had to work twice as hard to achieve the specified amount of boost.

Using 3" underneath should reduce the pressure and allow less than half the psi at the turbo than at the intake.

Our customer is completely happy with the system and with the power at 8psi on the road making a little more than 650whp. He's conservative and wanted the originality of the system. Also we made him custom long tube headers that he didn't want to part with so this system fits him perfect.

We have 1 wastegate and 1 BOV where the intake piping Y's to the throttle body. We have never had any problems with boost spiking or anything strange. We did ask him if we could play around and tune for race gas at higher boost. He allowed us and we made some pulls at 14psi and made some good power but the efficiency of the turbo was running out and we also didn't spend enough time with the timing up top.

Anyway we took it to the strip and ran a few times at 14psi running low 11 on street tires at close to 140mph!

I attribute the system working well to the quality that we added to it.(fuel system, Motec, etc.) This was on a Viper with stock forged internals and it sucks that the manufactureers all went with cast pistons.

This system has NO methanol injection, nos, extra injectors etc.

It's a good system for making decent power and I think there's more left in the timing up top but it still seems inneficient at higher boost levels with the big GTS 76 on 488cid.

Maybe a single T-88 on the truck would serve better for 505cid

That is if you had better pistons when you decided to push it more boost

BOOMERS REPLY


what you did was the way it should have been from the get-go. thats what i believe has been the problem all along-too many corners where cut with STS system in its current configuration. you cant make reliable power and save money at the same time. glad you came on here and talked about your install, the way you did it, is THE way to do it. awesome job on your part.

Dang it! I knew I missed something hehehe j/k john :p

Ill just ask Chris and dan tomorrow then...

HA HA, THATS PRETTY GOOD. I THINK IT IS AN OIL STARVATION ISSUE UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. SHOULD I TELL EVERYONE THE BEST WAY TO AVOID #3 FAILURE?

Stand up and take a bow! I'm in the 3 club, now too! :)
I recently (the Texas Mile) lost the #3 piston and rod. The piston was siezed in the bore and the rod broke causing damage to 2 cylinder sleeves, the oil galley, the side of the block and the oil pan.

DUDE YOUR TRUCK WAS FLAT OUT IMPRESSIVE. ME AND MY SHOP MGR THOUGHT YOUR MOTOR LASTED LONGER THAN WE THOUGHT IT WOULD. DID YOU JUST LOSE #3 OR DID YOU HOLE THE BLOCK TOO? THAT TRUCK WAS DADGUM FAST IN THE MILE!

I know ROE was working on a new set of pistons. The stockers are PAPER thin. :eek: :rolleyes: I saw the new ones when I was up there about 4-5 weeks ago. They are nice and BEEFY. :cool: Shiny too! :D

NICE GUESS, BUT BETTER PISTONS WONT FIX THE #3 PROBLEM.

HA HA, THATS PRETTY GOOD. I THINK IT IS AN OIL STARVATION ISSUE UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. SHOULD I TELL EVERYONE THE BEST WAY TO AVOID #3 FAILURE?


I sure would like to know. ;)

I sure would like to know. ;)

Me too, me too!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we all would. John if you know why, please let us know!!!

I sure would like to know. ;)

credit card number please.............

credit card number please.............

RAOTFLMAO...I just KNEW that was coming.

Come on John, Fess up...whats the deal? Or do you not really know?? :eek: :eek: :) :p :D

credit card number please.............


haha now that's funny right there :D But, Too bad we don't get to share the knowledge from you though :(

credit card number please.............
hehehehehe, that is some funny **** John. At least we know you have a sense of humor.

hehehehehe, that is some funny **** John. At least we know you have a sense of humor.

Um...I dont think he was joking :rolleyes:

NICE GUESS, BUT BETTER PISTONS WONT FIX THE #3 PROBLEM.

I had the forged Diamond ceramic coated pistons from Roe in mine when I lost #3 with the stock rods.
Its hard to tell but looks like the piston siezed in the bore breaking the rod and putting a large hole in the oil pan and a small piece of rod stuck in the side of the block(I may leave it there since it doesnt leak).

credit card number please.............

I don't believe he's kidding, nor should he be. Remember post #2 on this thread.

i am THE founding member as far back as 1996. got out of the club in 1998 and havent looked back.

He spent 2 years blowing **** up to learn the secret, and after that much time, money and effort you don't just give your secrets away. There is a reason the JH and some of the other big name builders charge more initially. So you don't have to do it over and over.

I still think John can be an ass sometimes (like I'm never one myself :eek: :rolleyes: ), but he is one "Smart" ass, and I mean that as a complement.

I don't believe he's kidding, nor should he be. Remember post #2 on this thread.

i am THE founding member as far back as 1996. got out of the club in 1998 and havent looked back.

He spent 2 years blowing **** up to learn the secret, and after that much time, money and effort you don't just give your secrets away. There is a reason the JH and some of the other big name builders charge more initially. So you don't have to do it over and over.

I still think John can be an ass sometimes (like I'm never one myself :eek: :rolleyes: ), but he is one "Smart" ass, and I mean that as a complement.

I agree with you on part of it, but If I was a tuner, and people were blowing up motors left and right due to something can could be prevented; would I help out and explain what they could do to minimize the problem?? HECK YES.

Why?? because I figure what goes around comes around....The only example I can use is the business I'm in (which can work for most businesses). I'm an IT director and run a Computer IT department. I had a customer that was having issues with his system, I send a guy out there to troubleshoot it and tell him what can be done to fix it. The guy fixed it himself and we didn't charge him to look at it...BUT..here's the kicker. 6 months later, the Guy needed a 15k network upgrade. And who did he come too??? that's right, us, and we took good care of him.

I guess I just dont understand how anyone (not pointing finger at John, since he acually never posted he would not without $$ ) would not give out helpful advice to prevent people from blowing up there trucks, just to make a buck...bad business practice in my book. AND ONCE AGAIN, THIS ISNT POINTED TO JOHN, just in general.

-Red

here is the simple answer:

the #3 rod journal can oil starve, get hot and break the rod near the journal. this can happen under high rpm, high load and higher HP conditions.

we use a coated rod bearing and havent lost a motor since doing this in 1998. its a lot more complex than just changing the rod bearing as the bearing upgrade is part of a complete bottom end stroker motor where all the internal components are being upgraded.

but that is my answer guys and it works for the motors we build. send your paypal payments to roktman.........

here is the simple answer:

the #3 rod journal can oil starve, get hot and break the rod near the journal. this can happen under high rpm, high load and higher HP conditions.

we use a coated rod bearing and havent lost a motor since doing this in 1998. its a lot more complex than just changing the rod bearing as the bearing upgrade is part of a complete bottom end stroker motor where all the internal components are being upgraded.

but that is my answer guys and it works for the motors we build. send your paypal payments to roktman.........


Hello John

You can answer my question or not. Your decision and I won't be offended if you don't.

Is the heat in the rod journal transfering up the rod and getting the piston hot enough that it's seizing in the bore?

here is the simple answer:

the #3 rod journal can oil starve, get hot and break the rod near the journal. this can happen under high rpm, high load and higher HP conditions.

we use a coated rod bearing and havent lost a motor since doing this in 1998. its a lot more complex than just changing the rod bearing as the bearing upgrade is part of a complete bottom end stroker motor where all the internal components are being upgraded.

but that is my answer guys and it works for the motors we build. send your paypal payments to roktman.........

Thank You john,

call me if you have any computer problems :D :D

-Seeya, Patrick

Hi all
As you all no my ram is pushing out a good deal off hp and i have not had a problem with piston number 3 yet but what i can say we fitted new rods
chev ones at that but we need to take the journal down a bit for them to fit?
so maybe john is right and i was just lucky in removing a bit off the journal which could off help the problem with number 3 or i could be talking a load off bullocks but i consider you might like to no. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

steve

Hello John

You can answer my question or not. Your decision and I won't be offended if you don't.

Is the heat in the rod journal transfering up the rod and getting the piston hot enough that it's seizing in the bore?

here is what happens: #3 rod journal gets oil starved, it gets hot and breaks the rod nearest the journal (furthest from the piston). after that all hell can break loose: hole in block, broken cam, piston dug into liner, liner scarred or pushed out of block and the list goes on. all the additional breakage is a result of the oil starved rod journal and the rod breaking due to that - in my humble opinion.

is there any way of preventing #3 journal from getting oil starved? Maybe dropping the oil pan and putting the oil plates so the oil doesn't slosh around and starve #3? Or is running the oil on the 'high level" instead of the 'low' level enough to get the journal is the oil at all times? What I don't get is why #3?? and not #1 since #1 would be more prone to oil starvation on acceleration??!

Thanks John for all your helpfulness

-Red

is there any way of preventing #3 journal from getting oil starved? Maybe dropping the oil pan and putting the oil plates so the oil doesn't slosh around and starve #3? Or is running the oil on the 'high level" instead of the 'low' level enough to get the journal is the oil at all times? What I don't get is why #3?? and not #1 since #1 would be more prone to oil starvation on acceleration??!

Thanks John for all your helpfulness

-Red

They stopped using the splash oiling system with the old 235 Chevy straight 6.

From what I understand John to be saying is it's a design flaw, no, that's not right. It's not a flaw of the design per say. The design is adaquate for the stock application. When you start upgrading your engine and increasing the loads, RPM's, cyclinder pressures and so on the stock oiling system is no longer adaquate.

A number of people have said it on this forum, it's about having a plan and building everything to support that plan. In this case, with this engine it apparently needs to include the oiling system.

here is what happens: #3 rod journal gets oil starved, it gets hot and breaks the rod nearest the journal (furthest from the piston). after that all hell can break loose: hole in block, broken cam, piston dug into liner, liner scarred or pushed out of block and the list goes on. all the additional breakage is a result of the oil starved rod journal and the rod breaking due to that - in my humble opinion.
John....thank you for your help......see guys he is a better person than most give him credit for :o :o ......I am glad your my tuner ;) ;)

John....thank you for your help......see guys he is a better person than most give him credit for :o :o ......I am glad your my tuner ;) ;)

I have never accused him on not knowing what he is doing. John H. is one of, if not the best Viper tuner out there. And considering the abuse he has taken at times on this forum, I commend him for the information he has just shared.

I have never accused him on not knowing what he is doing. John H. is one of, if not the best Viper tuner out there. And considering the abuse he has taken at times on this forum, I commend him for the information he has just shared.
Sliver.....my post had nothing to do with you at all my friend.....I have been very up-set at times myself....I just know he is a good person.....he can get side tracked at times like all of us ;) ...... but he has helped many people that most will never hear about... ;)

Sliver.....my post had nothing to do with you at all my friend.....I have been very up-set at times myself....I just know he is a good person.....he can get side tracked at times like all of us ;) ...... but he has helped many people that most will never hear about... ;)

I understand that Walt and did not mean to infer that it may have been directed at me.

We're cool. :cool: :)

I can'tsay anything but good regarding MY personal experiences with him, which have been limited to a few phone calls and emails. However, for him to take the time to even help me knowing that I am in FL and probably not a direct customer of his, says a lot. I am considering his P&P heads and also the stroker kit. Thanks for the help John.(I PM'd you)

I feel like a group hug is about to take place....!!!

They stopped using the splash oiling system with the old 235 Chevy straight 6.

From what I understand John to be saying is it's a design flaw, no, that's not right. It's not a flaw of the design per say. The design is adaquate for the stock application. When you start upgrading your engine and increasing the loads, RPM's, cyclinder pressures and so on the stock oiling system is no longer adaquate.

A number of people have said it on this forum, it's about having a plan and building everything to support that plan. In this case, with this engine it apparently needs to include the oiling system.

Well said SilverBack...Said a different (simpler) way for us with a simple mind, if you keep poking **** in a given sack, you're gonna break it, unless you beef the sack up. That all makes perfect sense to me, and that's not just an issue with these engines/vehicles, it also applies to every engine, transmission, rear end, drive shaft out there. They all have design limitations, if you exceed those limitations, something is gonna **** up... :eek: :D Look at Chevrolet's vave trains, same thing, they work well and last a long time in a stock engine, if you go very far beyond that and don't address it, it's gonna leave you sitting somewhere...

John, thanks for sharing your insight and experience with us. I made a note to myself, and I'm sure others have as well...

Well said SilverBack...Said a different (simpler) way for us with a simple mind, if you keep poking **** in a given sack, you're gonna break it, unless you beef the sack up. That all makes perfect sense to me, and that's not just an issue with these engines/vehicles, it also applies to every engine, transmission, rear end, drive shaft out there. They all have design limitations, if you exceed those limitations, something is gonna **** up... :eek: :D Look at Chevrolet's vave trains, same thing, they work well and last a long time in a stock engine, if you go very far beyond that and don't address it, it's gonna leave you sitting somewhere...

John, thanks for sharing your insight and experience with us. I made a note to myself, and I'm sure others have as well...

What's the Big Dog say about even a blind squirrel finding a nut sometimes. :o :D :p

What's the Big Dog say about even a blind squirrel finding a nut sometimes. :o :D :p

LMAO!!! I found one once, but it ended up being my own...and I haven't been the same since... :eek: :D ;)

JH. That by far is a great thing to do. :) You have obviously put your heart, soul, business and reputation into the R and D that has come to be known as pioneering and one of if not the best.
Quality, innovation and longevity come at a price. Therefore that piece of mind that your customers get is well worth your pricing.(sucking up) :p
Just of note, John replied within 1 day of being asked, (he may have not given away trade secrets) (which he shouldn’t have to) But for all of you gurus out there, there was probably enough info given to assist in erasing the problem. :)
I know if I did have the high-end cash to go with John's set up I would be there, but since I don’t :( I will have to wait until you brave frontiers and geniuses do figure it out.
Keep up the hard charging and thanks for guiding this in the correct direction.

Said a different (simpler) way for us with a simple mind, if you keep poking **** in a given sack, you're gonna break it, unless you beef the sack up. Must be some of that telecommunications jargon.:D

The one thing that still confuses me is there are a number of Paxton trucks out there that have not suffered this problem. Also these trucks seem to be putting more power to the ground than the STS equiped trucks.

Four members with the STS system have lost engines. One twice after upgrading the internal components. Now with what John has shared I have a question for the STS owners. Where does that system draw the oil from to lubricate the turbo? Could this be a contributing factor? Is that suplemental oiling system drawing enough oil from the engine to cause the failure of the #3 rod. Since #3 and #4 share a journal I don't see that Hellboys failure of number 4 to be an oddity.

There you go, something to think about.

Damn, I forgot the thank both John and RDEjr8 for getting me thinking in this direction.

The one thing that still confuses me is there are a number of Paxton trucks out there that have not suffered this problem. Also these trucks seem to be putting more power to the ground than the STS equiped trucks.

Four members with the STS system have lost engines. One twice after upgrading the internal components. Now with what John has shared I have a question for the STS owners. Where does that system draw the oil from to lubricate the turbo? Could this be a contributing factor? Is that suplemental oiling system drawing enough oil from the engine to cause the failure of the #3 rod. Since #3 and #4 share a journal I don't see that Hellboys failure of number 4 to be an oddity.

There you go, something to think about.

Damn, I forgot the thank both John and RDEjr8 for getting me thinking in this direction.

Would more oil in the system help?

Would more oil in the system help?

thats what I would think... It the STS 'requires' more oil, wouldnt increasing the amount of oil in the pan help?

-Red

Would more oil in the system help?

No. As long as there is adaquate oil in the pan it would not make a difference. If however the STS draws it oil supply from an area that is also feeding the mains (remember that the oil flows through the main bearing and then the rod bearings) it could be lowering the flow (please note, not pressure) to this area of the engine and causing the problem.

I'm also trying to remember where the oil pump for the turbo is located. Is it before or after the turbo?

It is possible we may be onto something here.

Boomer. You have any thoughts on this.

N/A Vipers have ran into this problem at the track as well. (Even with an upgraded race pan) Its the weak link in the engine and anything that exacerbates flow could expose it. Your probably right on Silverback in regards to oil starvation.

thats what I would think... It the STS 'requires' more oil, wouldnt increasing the amount of oil in the pan help?

-Red

This is a real simplistic explanation, but I'm hoping it will make sense.

What happens when you are in the shower and someone flushes the toilet? A portion of the cold water is drawn to another pipe or flow system. The flow in the shower system is decreased.

Make sense?

Now there are some other factors such as flow rates and pressures of the pumps, but we can get into that later.

By using the exhaust gasses from the turbo, would that not raise operating temps above that of the Paxton? 05Ram has no heat soak with the huge intercoolers? , but has attested to altered Chevy journals that may be compensating the same way as John’s Super Secret Squirrel Bearings. Maybe; the push on a stock Paxton 650 Horse? is just under the heat bearable for survival.

By using the exhaust gasses from the turbo, would that not raise operating temps above that of the Paxton? 05Ram has no heat soak with the huge intercoolers? , but has attested to altered Chevy journals that may be compensating the same way as John’s Super Secret Squirrel Bearings. Maybe; the push on a stock Paxton 650 Horse? is just under the heat bearable for survival.


Okay, lets take your questions one at a time.

By using the exhaust gasses from the turbo, would that not raise operating temps above that of the Paxton? 05Ram has no heat soak with the huge intercoolers? ,....

It does not matter how the air is compressed, it will generate the same amount of heat whether it's compressed by a Paxton or a Turbo. That is just a law of thermodynamics. However the turbo will transfer a little more heat to the compressed air just because of the heat of the exhaust heating up the turbo, but this will be minimal, and applies to the STS even more as the STS doesn't use the expanding gases as the energy to spin the turbo.

...but has attested to altered Chevy journals that may be compensating the same way as John’s Super Secret Squirrel Bearings.

The Chevy rods would not have anything to do with it if what John H. said is true, and I have no reason to not believe him. The oil flow to those rods would be the same as the stock rods.


Maybe; the push on a stock Paxton 650 Horse? is just under the heat bearable for survival.

Based on what John H. shared, it does not appear to be heat related, although I honestly believe that since the STS uses back pressure to spin the turbo, it is retaining more heat in the cyclinders (and therefore in the engine) which is not a good thing.

Thanks Silver,
It is quite obvious that I do not understand how the physics of these system work. :confused:
I am just a simple troubleshooter of simple systems ;)
I truely appriciate you even considering my thought process (even if its XXXXXXXXX'd up) :)
Just thought I was reading something along the lines of heat, near crank, travelling up rod, hurting piston, weakening wall strenght and wondering if that extra heat could be caused by the heat from exhaust gasses from turbo not being cooled as much as intake air from S/C for the power in question.
Thanks for the explanation though. :)

Thanks Silver,
It is quite obvious that I do not understand how the physics of these system work. :confused:
I am just a simple troubleshooter of simple systems ;)
I truely appriciate you even considering my thought process (even if its XXXXXXXXX'd up) :)
Just thought I was reading something along the lines of heat, near crank, travelling up rod, hurting piston, weakening wall strenght and wondering if that extra heat could be caused by the heat from exhaust gasses from turbo not being cooled as much as intake air from S/C for the power in question.
Thanks for the explanation though. :)

Don't feel bad at all. Hell it was your comment along with John Hennessey's explaination of the oiling problem that got me thinking down this path. Without your input I may have missed it altogether. This may or may not be the cause, but so far it's the best explaination I have seen yet.

Keep your inputs coming.

You guys are way too smart not to figure this out. Im not trying to say John is a God (like ROKT) LOL but he is up there at Demi-God status. :p
There are us dummys that me help out y'all in the Ivory Tower and refocus, but I believe when you all put you heads together, you will get this right.
Please do.. us minnions need your help. :D

i'm glad to see this #3 issue is finally going somewhere. Much thanks to John for his very helpful advice.. The oil starvation issue does make incredible sense to me. I'm glad to see that we have a smart bunch of guys on here that have good theories. Just when i thought i had a good one on why sts is taking out #3, next post i see some one had already put it down. i like that.
Now Hopefully we cant start seeing aftermarket upgrades to our oil system.
After all these failures due to oil lubication, i finally understand why BMW has focused on putting together a very intricate oil system on their motorsport engines. every thing from from tandem oil pumps, high pressure oil pumps that feed off oil normal eng oil supply to pressurize oil accumulators, man i'm getting so excited i'm gonna take a look at my books and freshen up on. i might start keepin an eye out for spare parts off m3's and M5's

I just wish someone would answer the damn questions.

Where does the STS draw it's oil from, and is the STS oil pump before or after the turbo. The answer to those questions may lead us to the answer or at least to other paths to pursue.

well mr. silver back i dont know where sts draws oil from but i can definately see where your going with this. i'm gonna try and post some information of bmw engine oiling material, although it definately has no relation to our engine perhaps we could apply some of the german engineering . maybe we could come up with a remedy for the flaw that wouldnt require completely changing our bottem end (from what i understood from john) to fix it

well mr. silver back i dont know where sts draws oil from but i can definately see where your going with this. i'm gonna try and post some information of bmw engine oiling material, although it definately has no relation to our engine perhaps we could apply some of the german engineering . maybe we could come up with a remedy for the flaw that wouldnt require completely changing our bottem end (from what i understood from john) to fix it

Yeah, where I going with this is if the STS system is drawing oil from the pressurized side of the engine oiling system and the oil pump for the turbo is mounted in front of the turbo it very well could be reducing the flow of the oil to an area that is barely adaquate to begin with.

We just need someone to tell us where the components are on the STS.

anyone with an STS around?? Mabye a user manual online?

-Red

anyone with an STS around?? Mabye a user manual online?

-Red

Let's see.... should be around here somewhere... AH!

Step 1 install turbo
Step 2 start truck
Step 3 repeat Step 2 until Step 4 is necessary
Step 4 replace engine
Step 5 see Step 1

Some of what I'm seeing here make sense. Some quite a bit, some not so much. Engine oiling for instance as presented by JH bears consideration. But what is the root cause of this? Could it be that in the process of the engine operating in conditions that reach into detonation that the bearings take such a beating that they are no longer properly oiled?

To answer Silver's question, the oil is taken from the pressurized output of the engine, routed through the turbos, then a scavenger pump returns the low pressure oil to the top of the engine.

What I am particularly interested in is the mechanical version of an autopsy. JH described failures that I have not heard of, and oddly enough, my failure is unlike anyone elses in this camp (I have broken ring lands, bent rings). What is the common denominator among all of these failures.

Of even greater interest is what aspects of the FI systems with good longevity have that those with poor longevity lack. Are the successful systems relying on nothing more than up-sizing the injectors and managing them better?

All I ask is that the next adventure that I send my beast on will result in quite respectable power on Sunday, and a truck that still drives on Monday. :)

Well you may have an engine delete mod, but you sure still have your sense of humor, that was funny. What kind of mods did you have before the piston delete mod?

Hi all

sorry that i missed all what going on was in bed???

Maybe because i have a none stock rod and people like Carrillo improve their design over stock?? do the Carrillo and other after market makes improvement on the oil feed design over the stock rods so that why i don't get a problem
found link for you sliver for you to have a read

link http://www.carrilloind.com/pdfs/10777_eprint.pdf

i hope this help all


SORRY JUST FOUND THIS?? IS THIS THE ANSWER WE HAVE ALL BEEN LOOKING FOR??????


CARRILLO'S FORCE FEED WRIST PIN OILING ("EDM-ing")
Force-feed oiling from the big end to the wrist pin end of the connecting rod is a process Carrillo Industries has employed since the mid 60's. This process was common practice in most Offenhauser Indy and Cosworth engines of that era. It was popular in those applications due to the very high top end heat developed as a result of turbo charging. The oil directed at the pin end allows for better heat dissipation and lubrication. With the advent of significant crankcase vacuums, baffling, and windage efforts, oil has become a scarce commodity at the top of the cylinder bore. This problem was presented to us, and we suggested the implementation of top end oiling. As a result, the popularity of force-feed oiling of the top end has increased dramatically.

Carrillo Industries has done a significant amount of testing and evaluation in the last thirty years relative to force-feed oiling. The process, although simple in description, is actually very critical and process sensitive. Needless to say, the simplest way to produce a hole from top to bottom of the connecting rod would be to deep hole or "gun drill" the hole. The difficulty with this method is the finish within the hole. If a stress riser or surface defect is left in the hole, it can easily lead to a fracture and eventually a failure. We employ substantial preparation for the hole prior to electronically disintegrating the material (EDM). This process leaves a much more consistent finish. After the hole is installed, we subject the part to normalization and heat treat to further stabilize the stresses generated. The part is then carefully deburred and inspected before finish procedures. Note that the dimensions of the part are specifically designed to accept the hole without compromise.

Now to address the effects of the force-feed. This process is not designed for all applications. The engine systems must have adequate and constant oil flow to support the oil going through the connecting rod. Further, it is not practical to assume that the oil supplied to the wrist pin area is constant. It is impossible for the oil supply to the top end to overcome the reciprocating effort of the connecting rod and piston assembly. A conclusion is that the oil hole and the slot behind the bearing become a reservoir for oil. As the connecting rod reciprocates downward, oil in the "reservoir" will gravitate upward to the wrist pin bore. The net result in our opinion is that force-feed oiling will help to inhibit problems at this piston and pin, but certainly, it is not a complete and absolute solution to all problems in that area.

The engine builder and/or designer must conclude if the force-feed oiling of the pin end will contribute to the durability and longevity of the specific
system.

http://www.srt10forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11679





Regards,
Fred Carrillo and Jack Sparks
CARRILLO INDUSTRIES



Return to the Tech Tips Archive



steve

You STS guys that blew a piston, was your oil pump in low or high?

Let's see.... should be around here somewhere... AH!

Step 1 install turbo
Step 2 start truck
Step 3 repeat Step 2 until Step 4 is necessary
Step 4 replace engine
Step 5 see Step 1

Some of what I'm seeing here make sense. Some quite a bit, some not so much. Engine oiling for instance as presented by JH bears consideration. But what is the root cause of this? Could it be that in the process of the engine operating in conditions that reach into detonation that the bearings take such a beating that they are no longer properly oiled?

To answer Silver's question, the oil is taken from the pressurized output of the engine, routed through the turbos, then a scavenger pump returns the low pressure oil to the top of the engine.

What I am particularly interested in is the mechanical version of an autopsy. JH described failures that I have not heard of, and oddly enough, my failure is unlike anyone elses in this camp (I have broken ring lands, bent rings). What is the common denominator among all of these failures.

Of even greater interest is what aspects of the FI systems with good longevity have that those with poor longevity lack. Are the successful systems relying on nothing more than up-sizing the injectors and managing them better?

All I ask is that the next adventure that I send my beast on will result in quite respectable power on Sunday, and a truck that still drives on Monday. :)

Thanks for the reply Hellboy.

Your description of the piston indicates that it was definitly detonation that destroyed your engine. Did the rod bearings on the 3/4 journal show any signs of excessive wear?

When a cyclinder suffers detonation the loads on the rod and bearing are magnified by a significant factor. Maybe I will take the time to figure it out some day. Anyway it is entirely possible that those loads do in fact drive the oil out of the bearing to journal interface for a fraction of a second. I would not be surprised.

Hi all

sorry that i missed all what going on was in bed???

Maybe because i have a none stock rod and people like Carrillo improve their design over stock?? do the Carrillo and other after market makes improvement on the oil feed design over the stock rods so that why i don't get a problem
found link for you sliver for you to have a read

link http://www.carrilloind.com/pdfs/10777_eprint.pdf

i hope this help all


SORRY JUST FOUND THIS?? IS THIS THE ANSWER WE HAVE ALL BEEN LOOKING FOR??????


CARRILLO'S FORCE FEED WRIST PIN OILING ("EDM-ing")
Force-feed oiling from the big end to the wrist pin end of the connecting rod is a process Carrillo Industries has employed since the mid 60's. This process was common practice in most Offenhauser Indy and Cosworth engines of that era. It was popular in those applications due to the very high top end heat developed as a result of turbo charging. The oil directed at the pin end allows for better heat dissipation and lubrication. With the advent of significant crankcase vacuums, baffling, and windage efforts, oil has become a scarce commodity at the top of the cylinder bore. This problem was presented to us, and we suggested the implementation of top end oiling. As a result, the popularity of force-feed oiling of the top end has increased dramatically.

Carrillo Industries has done a significant amount of testing and evaluation in the last thirty years relative to force-feed oiling. The process, although simple in description, is actually very critical and process sensitive. Needless to say, the simplest way to produce a hole from top to bottom of the connecting rod would be to deep hole or "gun drill" the hole. The difficulty with this method is the finish within the hole. If a stress riser or surface defect is left in the hole, it can easily lead to a fracture and eventually a failure. We employ substantial preparation for the hole prior to electronically disintegrating the material (EDM). This process leaves a much more consistent finish. After the hole is installed, we subject the part to normalization and heat treat to further stabilize the stresses generated. The part is then carefully deburred and inspected before finish procedures. Note that the dimensions of the part are specifically designed to accept the hole without compromise.

Now to address the effects of the force-feed. This process is not designed for all applications. The engine systems must have adequate and constant oil flow to support the oil going through the connecting rod. Further, it is not practical to assume that the oil supplied to the wrist pin area is constant. It is impossible for the oil supply to the top end to overcome the reciprocating effort of the connecting rod and piston assembly. A conclusion is that the oil hole and the slot behind the bearing become a reservoir for oil. As the connecting rod reciprocates downward, oil in the "reservoir" will gravitate upward to the wrist pin bore. The net result in our opinion is that force-feed oiling will help to inhibit problems at this piston and pin, but certainly, it is not a complete and absolute solution to all problems in that area.

The engine builder and/or designer must conclude if the force-feed oiling of the pin end will contribute to the durability and longevity of the specific
system.

http://www.srt10forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11679





Regards,
Fred Carrillo and Jack Sparks
CARRILLO INDUSTRIES



Return to the Tech Tips Archive



steve

Hello Steve

Based on John H's description of the oiling issue with #3 I don't believe the rod would be a factor. The hole in the Carrillo rod is to oil the wrist pin which in a lot of applications is dependent on oil splashing for it's oil supply. Most turbocharged diesel engines actually have a hole in the rod that sprays oil on the bottom of the piston to cool the piston. Sorry, went off track there for a minute. The problem JH described is getting the oil to the journal, not getting oil to the wrist pin which would be further down stream in the oiling system.

Interesting reading. I am going to through some old school stuff in hear because that is all I really know, maybe it doesn't apply at all to the V10

Stock 440 main bearings have a Groove cut into 1/2 of them that feed oil to the rod bearings. So the rod rearing is only oiled for 1/2 of the crank revolution. It is common practice to replace these with what are called full groove bearing that have a groove cut all the way around them so that the rod gets oiled contantly. Now on some engines this is not possible because their is not enough bearing sufrace left to take the load of the crank. You can go as far as getting different sized grooves to control the amount of oil.

Now alonf with this you need to install a high volume high pressure pump to keep up with the increased oil that is called for. Also I know on the 440 the oil pick up tube is a restriction and is replaced with a big 1/2" pick up to allow the pump to draw more oil in.

Maybe this has nothing to do with how the V10 oils but they are all things to think about.

As for me I am glad I am staying closer to stock. If I had the coin though I think I would go see JH :D

Thanks for the reply Hellboy.

Your description of the piston indicates that it was definitly detonation that destroyed your engine. Did the rod bearings on the 3/4 journal show any signs of excessive wear?


Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was detonation that killed mine. I'll ask my engine builder if he sees anything on journals 3 & 4.

It is still very interesting though that I would lose a piston so close to the one everyone else is. I would be very interested to learn what each failure looks like to see what commonalities they have.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was detonation that killed mine. I'll ask my engine builder if he sees anything on journals 3 & 4.

It is still very interesting though that I would lose a piston so close to the one everyone else is. I would be very interested to learn what each failure looks like to see what commonalities they have.

What mods did your deleted engine have?

Hi all
back again
just pulled one off my old con rods from a box see picture what has caused
the heat build up ?? as i can see their is no holes that feed oil to either end. was my exiting con rods getting to hot due to lack off oil maybe someone can chip in here.
http://www.srt10forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11680


steve

What mods did your deleted engine have?

STS. ..................

Hi all
back again
just pulled one off my old con rods from a box see picture what has caused
the heat build up ?? as i can see their is no holes that feed oil to either end. was my exiting con rods getting to hot due to lack off oil maybe someone can chip in here.
http://www.srt10forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11680


steve

The stock rods do not have oiling hole in them. The oil to the big end of the rod comes from the crank journal. The aftermarket rods you are now running have a hole from the big end to the small end to oil the wrist pin. This has nothing to do with how the oil gets to the big end.

Whoa. I was looking at the big end of the rod in your picture. Just noticed the small end. That was hot at some time. Were all your rods like that?

Needless to say this is a different condition than what John H. was describing.

The stock rods do not have oiling hole in them. The oil to the big end of the rod comes from the crank journal. The aftermarket rods you are now running have a hole from the big end to the small end to oil the wrist pin. This has nothing to do with how the oil gets to the big end.

Crap, Steve's picture is not showing for me, all I get is a red X... :mad:

STS. ..................

That's what I thought...but I wasn't sure.

Whoa. I was looking at the big end of the rod in your picture. Just noticed the small end. That was hot at some time. Were all your rods like that?

Needless to say this is a different condition than what John H. was describing.


HI sliver

all the rods was like that??? :eek: :eek:
steve

OK I know sprite lost his on the dyno just after install. Who else lost theirs within the first 500 miles? The system is supposed to have the oil pump set to high for the first 500 miles are so. Then switched to low for normal driving, including drag racing. It only needs to be switched to HI for road racing. Could the pump set to HI have any effect?

OK I know sprite lost his on the dyno just after install. Who else lost theirs within the first 500 miles? The system is supposed to have the oil pump set to high for the first 500 miles are so. Then switched to low for normal driving, including drag racing. It only needs to be switched to HI for road racing. Could the pump set to HI have any effect?

It is possible. I don't know the volumns or pressures of either pump so it's impossible to know for sure. However if the STS pump is drawing oil away from the engine oiling system it is possible that it is making the oiling issue for the number 3 journal worse.

Personally I would be looking at other possible oiling methods for the turbo based on John's input.

Although I would agree with John Hennessy that there have been oiling issues with viper motor’s , I believe there may be something else going on with the failures that some people on this forum have been experiencing .

A couple of thoughts about the number three rod bearing problem that people are having .

- These motors do not have a lot of piston to cylinder clearance . Depending on production tolerances some of these have as little as .001-.002 . thousandths of an inch . The motor mount ears are adjacent to both number three and four cylinders . It is know that the blocks can distort slightly when under sever twisting loads against the motor mounts . In high power viper racing motors that are built for endurance , forged pistons are used with enough cylinder to piston clearance to eliminate the chance of sticking a piston even under extream operating conditions . Some engine builders will also install thicker cylinder liners , being that the factory liners are very thin .

- Although there have been oiling issues with viper engines , most of those failures we have seen happened when the customer was road racing their vehicle . That’s why mopar and other vendors offer modified oil pick up’s and trap door oil pans for the gen two and three motors . We had a car in our shop about a month ago that had thrown four connecting rods through the side of the block , he did not have a trap door oil pan .

- My guess is that if there is a tuning issue with these turbo engines , the excessive cylinder temps caused either by an excessively lean mixture and/or detonation , combined with the tight cylinder to piston clearance and the cylinder flex, is causing the pistons to stick in the bore . The extreme loading of the connecting rod is causing the rod bearing to destroy itself .

- To disclaim myself , I have not tuned a STS turbo , and don’t really know what is involved with the oiling system . Therefore , I suppose there could be a problem with the oiling system , though , just from my experience with turbochargers in general , I would not think that the turbo would rob the oiling system of very much oil volume .

- Chris

Although I would agree with John Hennessy that there have been oiling issues with viper motor’s , I believe there may be something else going on with the failures that some people on this forum have been experiencing .

A couple of thoughts about the number three rod bearing problem that people are having .

- These motors do not have a lot of piston to cylinder clearance . Depending on production tolerances some of these have as little as .001-.002 . thousandths of an inch . The motor mount ears are adjacent to both number three and four cylinders . It is know that the blocks can distort slightly when under sever twisting loads against the motor mounts . In high power viper racing motors that are built for endurance , forged pistons are used with enough cylinder to piston clearance to eliminate the chance of sticking a piston even under extream operating conditions . Some engine builders will also install thicker cylinder liners , being that the factory liners are very thin .

- Although there have been oiling issues with viper engines , most of those failures we have seen happened when the customer was road racing their vehicle . That’s why mopar and other vendors offer modified oil pick up’s and trap door oil pans for the gen two and three motors . We had a car in our shop about a month ago that had thrown four connecting rods through the side of the block , he did not have a trap door oil pan .

- My guess is that if there is a tuning issue with these turbo engines , the excessive cylinder temps caused either by an excessively lean mixture and/or detonation , combined with the tight cylinder to piston clearance and the cylinder flex, is causing the pistons to stick in the bore . The extreme loading of the connecting rod is causing the rod bearing to destroy itself .

- To disclaim myself , I have not tuned a STS turbo , and don’t really know what is involved with the oiling system . Therefore , I suppose there could be a problem with the oiling system , though , just from my experience with turbochargers in general , I would not think that the turbo would rob the oiling system of very much oil volume .

- Chris
Chris...don't know you but would like to say "Thank You" for your post on this problem.....another reason why this is the best forum for our trucks...:)

Interesting, thanks for your insight Chris. One question...back in the day it was common practice to chain the motor down to the frame on high HP/TQ producing engines. Would it be a good idea to find some points on the lift side of these engines and chain them to the frame to possibly reduce the load on the block around pistons #3 and #4? If that is contributing in any way, it would seem to me that a motor tie down using other points on the block might spread the strain out and minimize it...I guess it wouldn't hurt anything.

...... We had a car in our shop about a month ago that had thrown four connecting rods through the side of the block , he did not have a trap door oil pan .

.....- Chris

:eek: :eek: EEEeeeeew, I bet that made a neat sound when it went. :D I think you need to post pictures of that one! :) I KNOW you took some! :D :p

Interesting, thanks for your insight Chris. One question...back in the day it was common practice to chain the motor down to the frame on high HP/TQ producing engines. Would it be a good idea to find some points on the lift side of these engines and chain them to the frame to possibly reduce the load on the block around pistons #3 and #4? If that is contributing in any way, it would seem to me that a motor tie down using other points on the block might spread the strain out and minimize it...I guess it wouldn't hurt anything.

Ive been thinking the same thing. There are a couple open pre-threaded holes in the block/heads that are available. And I think a couple turnbuckles might help with load balancing under torque.

-Red

Just to clear up the oiling system questions on the STS, the STS oil pump is located after the turbocharger and pulls the oil from the turbo and returns it to the engine. Running this pump on high or low speed will have nothing to do with the flow of oil exiting the engine. The oil is picked up at the oil pressure sensor at the RH front of the engine. Any large draw on the oiling system would show up directly on your oil pressure gauge as the sending unit is after the point where the oil is drawn out for the turbocharger. The engines that I am aware of that have failed have not broken connecting rods. The STS customers with issues or questions are always welcome to contact me directly. The forums are not the best way to communicate with STS as we just aren't out here consistently and I usually only come out to the forums if I am requested to do so.

Just to clear up the oiling system questions on the STS, the STS oil pump is located after the turbocharger and pulls the oil from the turbo and returns it to the engine. Running this pump on high or low speed will have nothing to do with the flow of oil exiting the engine. The oil is picked up at the oil pressure sensor at the RH front of the engine. Any large draw on the oiling system would show up directly on your oil pressure gauge as the sending unit is after the point where the oil is drawn out for the turbocharger. The engines that I am aware of that have failed have not broken connecting rods. The STS customers with issues or questions are always welcome to contact me directly. The forums are not the best way to communicate with STS as we just aren't out here consistently and I usually only come out to the forums if I am requested to do so.

If that's the location (which is the same as the Paxton) then oil starvation (caused by the FI) is not the case, since it would appear on the Paxton also. So were back the other choices of detonation, block flex, oil starvation on the lower end, or tuning. Which of these 3 are mainly just appearing on the STS..and why..?

-Red

Ive been thinking the same thing. There are a couple open pre-threaded holes in the block/heads that are available. And I think a couple turnbuckles might help with load balancing under torque.

-Red

I certainly don't see what it would hurt...if nothing else it might help transfer the torque to the running gear vs be absorbed by the motor mounts etc which is why I think some of that was done in days gone past (that and keeping motor mounts from breaking)...another thing on my to do list.

If that's the location (which is the same as the Paxton) then oil starvation (caused by the FI) is not the case, since it would appear on the Paxton also. So were back the other choices of detonation, block flex, oil starvation on the lower end, or tuning. Which of these 3 are mainly just appearing on the STS..and why..?

-Red

One thing to remember is the turbo on the STS system is located 6 to 8 feet away from the where the oil supply is drawn from. It .................. **** it, I'm done with this thread. Maybe MR. Turbocharged just needs to explain why so many of these trucks are loosing engines with his system on them. And if he is so ****ing confident in the system he should be providing new engines to his customers. I just hate to see members of this forum getting ****ed over.

I certainly don't see what it would hurt...if nothing else it might help transfer the torque to the running gear vs be absorbed by the motor mounts etc which is why I think some of that was done in days gone past (that and keeping motor mounts from breaking)...another thing on my to do list.

Hello Steve. Sending you a PM in a couple minutes in regard to this.

Hello Steve. Sending you a PM in a couple minutes in regard to this.

CC/forward that to me too

thanks

-Red

One thing to remember is the turbo on the STS system is located 6 to 8 feet away from the where the oil supply is drawn from. It .................. **** it, I'm done with this thread. Maybe MR. Turbocharged just needs to explain why so many of these trucks are loosing engines with his system on them. And if he is so ****ing confident in the system he should be providing new engines to his customers. I just hate to see members of this forum getting ****ed over.

Agreed. :mad: I can't understand how someone can sell a product with such a high failure rate??? :confused: :rolleyes:

Agreed. :mad: I can't understand how someone can sell a product with such a high failure rate??? :confused: :rolleyes:

Someone with skin in the game should approach them and see what they say. My guess is they'll take the approach that the operation was a success so they don't care if the patient died...but we should give them a chance to make it right...I suppose.

I'm staying in close contact with STS. So far they have offered me great customer service. They have asked me lot of questions in an attempt to keep my engine intact. Have the guys who have lost the pistons been in contact with STS?

Although I would agree with John Hennessy that there have been oiling issues with viper motor’s , I believe there may be something else going on with the failures that some people on this forum have been experiencing .

A couple of thoughts about the number three rod bearing problem that people are having .

- These motors do not have a lot of piston to cylinder clearance . Depending on production tolerances some of these have as little as .001-.002 . thousandths of an inch . The motor mount ears are adjacent to both number three and four cylinders . It is know that the blocks can distort slightly when under sever twisting loads against the motor mounts . In high power viper racing motors that are built for endurance , forged pistons are used with enough cylinder to piston clearance to eliminate the chance of sticking a piston even under extream operating conditions . Some engine builders will also install thicker cylinder liners , being that the factory liners are very thin .

- Although there have been oiling issues with viper engines , most of those failures we have seen happened when the customer was road racing their vehicle . That’s why mopar and other vendors offer modified oil pick up’s and trap door oil pans for the gen two and three motors . We had a car in our shop about a month ago that had thrown four connecting rods through the side of the block , he did not have a trap door oil pan .

- My guess is that if there is a tuning issue with these turbo engines , the excessive cylinder temps caused either by an excessively lean mixture and/or detonation , combined with the tight cylinder to piston clearance and the cylinder flex, is causing the pistons to stick in the bore . The extreme loading of the connecting rod is causing the rod bearing to destroy itself .

- To disclaim myself , I have not tuned a STS turbo , and don’t really know what is involved with the oiling system . Therefore , I suppose there could be a problem with the oiling system , though , just from my experience with turbochargers in general , I would not think that the turbo would rob the oiling system of very much oil volume .

- Chris

i agree. most people here are not getting their motors killed by the number 3. i think they are much more likely to be cracking the tops of pistons, breaking off rings and detonation related failures like that. unlress you have a broken #3 rod or hole in the block from the #3 rod then you may have to get out of this club and join another club:

Detonation Club

if you guys are interested, i can put together a bottom end package of JE pistons (9.0 cr), JE wrist pins, Manley pro rods, coated rod bearings, ring upgrade and instructions on how to machine the block and crank to build your own 522 just like ours.

if you guys are interested, i can put together a bottom end package of JE pistons (9.0 cr), JE wrist pins, Manley pro rods, coated rod bearings, ring upgrade and instructions on how to machine the block and crank to build your own 522 just like ours.

If want to stay N/A. When should I start getting concern and start beefing up my internals?

Could you PM me cost for a stroker kit and install? Thanks.

NICE GUESS, BUT BETTER PISTONS WONT FIX THE #3 PROBLEM.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

if you guys are interested, i can put together a bottom end package of JE pistons (9.0 cr), JE wrist pins, Manley pro rods, coated rod bearings, ring upgrade and instructions on how to machine the block and crank to build your own 522 just like ours.


depending on price I'd be all over that.....I had been looking and talking with RSI about their stroker kit, I'd rather build it myself so kit form is wonderful :D

OK, i will put some numbers together and some more specific product content. this might not cost as much as some of you would think.

OK, i will put some numbers together and some more specific product content. this might not cost as much as some of you would think.

Really?? I was thinking 500.00 :D :D :D :eek:

Really?? I was thinking 500.00 :D :D :D :eek:

the broke **** approach is what has gotten many into the #3 club and the detonation club. as the man once said, you can pay (somebody) now or pay later.

OK, i will put some numbers together and some more specific product content. this might not cost as much as some of you would think.
You've got my attention as well. I'd be interested in seeing what this kit is going to cost for a N/A set up.

I haven't been in touch with STS, not sure if my tuner has, just don't want to lose a built engine now like big asp. If STS really stood behind their product maybe they should hook me up with engine insurance, I'll even pay a few k for it :p

I haven't been in touch with STS, not sure if my tuner has, just don't want to lose a built engine now like big asp. If STS really stood behind their product maybe they should hook me up with engine insurance, I'll even pay a few k for it :p


I have the contact info for STS if you want it.

OK so who's lost the #3 or #4 due to STS.

1. Big Asp
2. Sprite
3. SC vette
4. Ram from Hell

How many kits were sold?
How ****ed am I?

Just did a body count so to speak and it appears that you and Breederofkoi are the only 2 that have not lost an engine to date. If you count Big Asp as 2 since he has lost 2 engines, that means 5 failures in 7 attempts, or a 71.4% failure rate.

Personally I would have that piece of **** off my truck so fast it would make your ****ing head spin, but that would be me.

..... or a 71.4% failure rate.

....


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

Just did a body count so to speak and it appears that you and Breederofkoi are the only 2 that have not lost an engine to date. If you count Big Asp as 2 since he has lost 2 engines, that means 5 failures in 7 attempts, or a 71.4% failure rate.

Personally I would have that piece of **** off my truck so fast it would make your ****ing head spin, but that would be me.

5 failures in 7 ....these sts guys should work for the Government.....

if you guys are interested, i can put together a bottom end package of JE pistons (9.0 cr), JE wrist pins, Manley pro rods, coated rod bearings, ring upgrade and instructions on how to machine the block and crank to build your own 522 just like ours.
I'd be really interested in this, depending on price.. I wonder if this would be a descent setup for turbocharging??? Sounds nice

5 failures in 7 ....these sts guys should work for the Government.....
Hey watch it man, lol. :eek: :rolleyes:

:D

Car dude and Jet still have theirs.

So my options are a) Stick with the STS b) TT (how much would turbos typically run? I already got the rebuilt engine, water meth, upgraded tranny, FMIC, etc) of course I would be stuck with the STS still not sure if anyone would buy it?

Car dude and Jet still have theirs.

Thanks for correcting me (and I'm not being sarcastic). I missed those members, sorry.

So, that will make it 5 of 9 or 55.6% and one of those failures is after the engine was built with stronger parts. All I know is it's a bet I would not take, especially when you consider the power increase you are getting is not in line with the Paxton.

Thanks for correcting me (and I'm not being sarcastic). I missed those members, sorry.

So, that will make it 5 of 9 or 55.6% and one of those failures is after the engine was built with stronger parts. All I know is it's a bet I would not take, especially when you consider the power increase you are getting is not in line with the Paxton.


I don't know what to do. Lots of money down the drain. I'm just as fast without the STS. I would still have to pay someone to get the truck back to the pre-STS condition. I think I fear telling my wife I wasted all this money more than actually wasting the money.

So we still don't know what causes this problem? I wonder if it is just something simple as tuning. To lean and your done. I have a lot of miles on mine now (over 6000). But my tune is rich which is causing me to lose HP. So I don't know which one is saving me (tune or lack of HP). Maybe we could start a "Save Smoke's Truck fund". Free t-shirt with donation.

............ Maybe we could start a "Save Smoke's Truck fund". Free t-shirt with donation.


I'm in. I hate the thought of you losing a motor.

Smoke I think they should offer or have to buy the systems back , with over 59% problems with them, and also not delivering on the hp they should , then they missrepresented on product, but either way, they still should buy it back until they get the bugs worked out of them.



.

Smoke I think they should offer or have to buy the systems back , with over 59% problems with them, and also not delivering on the hp they should , then they missrepresented on product, but either way, they still should buy it back until they get the bugs worked out of them.



.

If I was in that position I would be happy if they just paid to remove it from my truck. You could then hang on to it in the event that they figure out what the problems are, but on that one I would not hold my breath.

Has anyone that owns one of these systems called these guys and talked to them? Maybe that would be a worthwhile phone call...prolly not, but... :confused:

sorry to bring this thread back, but i remember first reading bout sts in one of my truck mags. it showed a hemi-ram on the cover burning out, also with big letters claiming add 150hp w/turbo. Well just wondering if the hemi-rams have a similiar set up and if they had promblems. anyone?

sorry to bring this thread back, but i remember first reading bout sts in one of my truck mags. it showed a hemi-ram on the cover burning out, also with big letters claiming add 150hp w/turbo. Well just wondering if the hemi-rams have a similiar set up and if they had promblems. anyone?
They do have a system up and running for the Hemi's. Much the same scenario though. Hemi guys blew up some motors, did their own research, mostly trial and error. Most are now upgrading their fuel systems and systems controllers on their own now to get the system right. ;)

ATTENTION STS OWNERS: I have said before, this is not the place to get information from STS. We are not out on this forum consistently so if you have a question about an STS system, please contact STS directly. Any of our customers will tell you that our customer support is top notch and that we are more than willing to spend the time to answer any questions and help sort out any technical issues. I am not aware of any of our customers that have blown engines that weren't running more than 5-6 psi boost except for our prototype truck which was a tuning related issue that was sorted out and fixed before any other systems were sent out. If you have any questions or you have blown an engine running 5 psi, please call 866-WE TURBO and ask for Rick (ext. 807).

Thanks, Rick @ STS
www.ststurbo.com

Rick I will have my tuner give you a call, my engine blew on the dyno running the stock setup.

Rick I will have my tuner give you a call, my engine blew on the dyno running the stock setup.

SPRITE - THIS IS OFF TOPIC - BUT DID YOU GET YOUR Z06 FROM SW IN AUSTIN?

Nope, I got it from Illinois, did you hear anything from iForged about my wheels?

ATTENTION STS OWNERS: I have said before, this is not the place to get information from STS. We are not out on this forum consistently so if you have a question about an STS system, please contact STS directly. Any of our customers will tell you that our customer support is top notch and that we are more than willing to spend the time to answer any questions and help sort out any technical issues. I am not aware of any of our customers that have blown engines that weren't running more than 5-6 psi boost except for our prototype truck which was a tuning related issue that was sorted out and fixed before any other systems were sent out. If you have any questions or you have blown an engine running 5 psi, please call 866-WE TURBO and ask for Rick (ext. 807).

Thanks, Rick @ STS
www.ststurbo.com

Post Deleted.

I am not aware of any of our customers that have blown engines that weren't running more than 5-6 psi boost except for our prototype truck which was a tuning related issue that was sorted out and fixed before any other systems were sent out. If you have any questions or you have blown an engine running 5 psi, please call 866-WE TURBO and ask for Rick (ext. 807).

Thanks, Rick @ STS
www.ststurbo.com


OK guys please call STS to notify them of your problems. This is one way we can try to get a fix. But if no one is informing them, then they have nothing to go on.

Post Deleted

...........my last two posts were not helping your cause, so I deleted them. I will vent sometime when this is over, which for your sake I hope is soon.

Sorry again.

...........my last two posts were not helping your cause, so I deleted them. I will vent sometime when this is over, which for your sake I hope is soon.

Sorry again.

puss................ :D

puss................ :D


Me???? :confused:

http://www.holdmyfile.com/n_images/usr86/gal223/s_img/f0014.jpg (http://www.holdmyfile.com/imagehost/n_viewz.php?n=7000)

:D :p

Me???? :confused:

http://www.holdmyfile.com/n_images/usr86/gal223/s_img/f0014.jpg (http://www.holdmyfile.com/imagehost/n_viewz.php?n=7000)

:D :p


Sts says they are not aware of failures unless people are exceeding 5 psi

and you say.......Nothing..... :confused:

You are the fire and the brimstone.....bring it.....

Sts says they are not aware of failures unless people are exceeding 5 psi

and you say.......Nothing..... :confused:

You are the fire and the brimstone.....bring it.....

There was fire, brimstone and even a little **** flinging in the posts that were deleted. Thing was it was possibly hurting what Smoke was trying to accomplish, and I did not want to do that to a fellow member.

There was fire, brimstone and even a little **** flinging in the posts that were deleted. Thing was it was possibly hurting what Smoke was trying to accomplish, and I did not want to do that to a fellow member.

You are no fun sober....

Well as long as you were thinking it..... :cool: :D

It looks like I'll be going with the PTK TT kit instead, I got everything needed to run it except upgraded fuel rails, etc. Their kit is around 9k and comes with the headers to the turbo, and an intercooler. I already got an intercooler which I can trade in (the one from their single kit) so that should knock some off the price as well as bellanger headers with no miles on them that I can sell. With this system I can also use my exhaust. The question is then what to do with the STS, maybe someone is interested in buying it, maybe not. In any case I think this is the smarter thing to do from my side of things.

It looks like I'll be going with the PTK TT kit instead, I got everything needed to run it except upgraded fuel rails, etc. Their kit is around 9k and comes with the headers to the turbo, and an intercooler. I already got an intercooler which I can trade in (the one from their single kit) so that should knock some off the price as well as bellanger headers with no miles on them that I can sell. With this system I can also use my exhaust. The question is then what to do with the STS, maybe someone is interested in buying it, maybe not. In any case I think this is the smarter thing to do from my side of things.

Sounds pragmatic.....Perhaps given all the STS woes PTK will offer you some sort of protection?.....

Who is going to install and tune it for you....?......

I believe he's using Macedo Motorsports in Florida ....Sounds pragmatic.....Perhaps given all the STS woes PTK will offer you some sort of protection?.....

Who is going to install and tune it for you....?......

yeah Macedo Motorsports in Orlando

OK guys please call STS to notify them of your problems. This is one way we can try to get a fix. But if no one is informing them, then they have nothing to go on.


Bumping this until you guys start calling STS. If you all report your info then maybe they can find a fix.

Smoke you should PM Rokt about either makin a new post to sticky or doin this one!!Bumping this until you guys start calling STS. If you all report your info then maybe they can find a fix.

Why not calling STS and finding out how many units have been sold.

then finding out how many have had problems.

Maybe Sean at Roe could help with this?

.

Stinker I think I am going with your setup :)

I am going to talk with them after they get back from lunch and let you know what they say, I have had a couple guys interested in the twins, so I may try to get them to bump it up a notch. Last time I talked with them they said they were slammed at the moment, and it would take a little while to get the twin together. Let you know in a few hours friend, I also have to step out for a little bit , so it may be a few hours before i post anything.

Its much to pretty outside to be masturbating inside :D



.

Why not calling STS and finding out how many units have been sold.

then finding out how many have had problems.

Maybe Sean at Roe could help with this?

.


I have been back working this issue. I have been trading emails with Rick at STS. No one has informed him of their engine loss. He is not a regular on this board so he has no way to find out about failures (other than my emails). My thinking is if all these guys call him give their info then maybe he can find a common denominator that we don't see. But if everyone just rebuilds and goes on then it does no good for any of the other STS owners. Not everyone can afford to just rebuild. I really feel like we are all just missing something that can prevent these engine losses. We just haven’t identified it yet. Gathering all the info (boost, A/F, setup, etc) will help us figure it out.

That i so true bro, everybody does need to at least call them and let them know

I feel your pain bro, and youre doing the right thing by keeping things low, I had to penny pinch just to help pay for my little #3 mishap, so I definitly dont blame you , its not cheap rebuilding one of these bastards.

Hopefully everyone will get together on this, and I applaud you , you are definitly not letting this lye down and die.

Good luck my friend , and if there is anything I can do just ask.


.

I have been back working this issue. I have been trading emails with Rick at STS. No one has informed him of their engine loss. He is not a regular on this board so he has no way to find out about failures (other than my emails). My thinking is if all these guys call him give their info then maybe he can find a common denominator that we don't see. But if everyone just rebuilds and goes on then it does no good for any of the other STS owners. Not everyone can afford to just rebuild. I really feel like we are all just missing something that can prevent these engine losses. We just haven’t identified it yet. Gathering all the info (boost, A/F, setup, etc) will help us figure it out.

My tuner sent him an email.

That i so true bro, everybody does need to at least call them and let them know

I feel your pain bro, and youre doing the right thing by keeping things low, I had to penny pinch just to help pay for my little #3 mishap, so I definitly dont blame you , its not cheap rebuilding one of these bastards.

Hopefully everyone will get together on this, and I applaud you , you are definitly not letting this lye down and die.

Good luck my friend , and if there is anything I can do just ask.


.

They told me 2-2.5months for the twin, I really wish they could speed it up a bit, would like my truck back! :p

My tuner sent him an email.


Thanks. Did you ever find out how the hoses to the waste-gates were hooked up?

Nope was down there yesterday but forgot to ask about that.

I thought Big Asp let him know about the first failure.

Sprite I am going to talk to them in a little , let me see what I can do. Talk to ya soon.

Silverback!!

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:d :d

I thought Big Asp let him know about the first failure.


He knows at least about the first one. I don't know if he told him about the 2nd. Unless that is covered in the statement of people running 5 psi not blowing engines.

He knows at least about the first one. I don't know if he told him about the 2nd. Unless that is covered in the statement of people running 5 psi not blowing engines.

I would think it's covered under that statement.

I am obviously very late to this post but I believe SCVette was running propane/nitrous, more boost, and different pistons. His first engine blew from too much boost (overboosting problem). FlyingLow I am with you on the whole engine rebuilding thing. I had them make me a custom tune so I hope I am safe. My truck has only 1500 miles since the install. My build is a little different since I have Mopar headers, one cat, and an Accusump. Truck does sound unbelievable though...

Bump ...............

bump again