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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Folks.

I Just registered myself, I am Disraeli W. Head Tuner of Kartec Tuning here in Caracas, Venezuela, and I now have a good knowledge regarding the performance of the srt10 after one of my friends "wasted" almost 9000 USD in a Paxton supercharger kit for a 8 HP increase, I will explain you why!!

Here are the facts

STR10 2005, v10 500 HP, 500, Ft-lbs, 500 Watts, Black
Imported from the states one month ago

Dynoed 480 HP BONE STOCK on high altitute (890 mm of atmos absolute pressure)

Paxton supercharger kit (NOVI 2000) installed:
Charge air cooler (75%-25% water-coolant mix)
BOV
Heat exchanger core front mounted.
Twin Sequential fuel pumps, 105 psi of max fuel pressure at constant 7 psi of boost
Split Second Piggy back computer (timing controller box), according to paxton it will delay ignition timing based on manifold boost pressure, good manifold boost pressure source for it.
Stable boost pressure
Everything else in quiet order.

Results:

1st Pull
Water temp 190F deg
Air intake temp 40-55 deg (celcious) Location of the sensor upstream the supercharger 2 inches before the trhottle where the kits says it should go
95 octane
Dynoed 610 HP (28-30% HP increase, very dissapointed at the beggining but okey so far...)
Water and Air intake temp are "Cold"


Second pull
Water temp 200F deg
Air intake temp 55-75 deg same location
95 octane, and same weather conditions
Dynoed 550HP (lost 10%)
Seems to be due to higher inlet air temps than 1st pull (fans on teh dyno room working perfect, High velocity and flow)

Third Pull
Water Temp 210F deg
Air intake temps 65-85D same location
95 octane, same everything
Dynoed 488 HP (lost 20% from initial run)

Running 5 heat range plug, no detonation from digital knock sensor displays on each motor bank, suggested heat range 6

11.0 to 1 or richer at higher rpms Air fuel ratio on all pulls at that Massive and extreme, overengineering 105 psi on the fuel system.


Findings

THE CHARGE AIR COOLER CORE IS QUITE SMALL FOR THE APPLICATION (WILL SUFFER FROM RAPIDLY HEAT SOAK EVEN ON HIGHWAYS OR EXTREME FANS ON IT ON THE DYNO) you will lost around 10-12% from cold initial runs-

YOU WILL HAVE DECENT PERFORMANCE JUST WHEN YOUR TRUCK IS BELLOW 200F OF WATER TEMP. (I think no one wants a 9000 kit to last just a few seconds before it turns to a big hair dryer and instable on power delivery)

IF YOU WANT TO USE THIS KIT, YOU WILL NEED LOTS OF SUPPORTING MODS.
(Colder Roe Termostast, radiator shrouds, bigger heat exchanger core, higher flowing water pump of the cooler system, and maybe, if you can keep the water temp bellow 200 it will feel and be fast!!

I am sorry to tell but we are very dissapointed. It is a very straight forward kit, simple instalation, mechanical fueling approach and simple ignition retard setup.

All dodges PCM seems to be pulling timing when truck is warm, power inestability is increased in the presence of the supercharger.

If someone has suffer from the same story please share it.

Coments are welcome.

Thanks for your attention

DJ
 

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Paxton/Supercharger

I have had absolutely NO problems. If you read back on a couple of these posts...you'll see we've had several discussions on TUNERS. We're NOT talking installers, we're talking TUNERS.
I happen to be using one the best on the planet..maybe the Universe.
BTW these KITS installed on a "VIPER" are getting OVER 670+rwhp. with a much tighter and more confinded space for the intercooler.(i.e.HOTTER)


SORRY about your BAD experience w/this product.

:(
Quick:-(

p/s: over 1,000mi. and over 600+rwhp./91 octane
12.15.04
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks, so it means that you are not having heat issue/power losses with your kit.

Have you dynoed it several times/pulls?

Who is Dan? did he install/tune the kit the kit in your truck?

Did you remove cats and trip the cel?

Where is your IAT sensor located?

Thanks so far you are the only support as Paxton won´t help that much seems they are "not aware of this problem before" so they can´t help fixing it

DJ
 

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PLEASE call Dan..310.841.6996, he knows a few of the people @ Paxton.
He may be able to help you. And that was three(3) pulls, worst was 580rwhp.
And the worst came FIRST when it was @ it's coolest. All four(4) cats are in place I live in California, NO headers yet, 91 octane fuel, as for the tech. questions you'll have to speak to Dan.

:cool:
Quick;-)
 

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i never had any luck on my built 94 v-10 truck with an intercooler/Novi 2000 combo. but with a Carroll alky/water spray system, i was able to run the boost up to 12psi with no detonation problems, and do not get the 2-3psi drop you will get with conventional intercoolers. i have it armed to come on at 8psi, so solution supply it not a real problem, unless i stay above 8psi for long periods of time, but i would run out of rubber before that happens
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I talked to Dan Today, is very nice and knowledge guy, thanks for the contact, we agreed about many things, things I have stated in my previous post, he suggest the water spray system as well, sounds great as a bandaid for the real problem at the beggining, as my fellow friend said, the Novi/cooler combo, I will check tomorrow if we got knock sensors, Dan told me they were introduced on 2005 trucks. They insteresting thing is that the Paxton Diagram supplied with the kit for the ECU cable tapping was different than what we had in this truck. So I am still guessing this is a guinea pig at long distant for paxton.

We will put some more aditional knock sensor/air fuel ratio dataloging tomorrow then we´ll add a resistance to the water temp ntc sensor type, so the ecu won´t read anything beyond 200F and check for knocking pushing the truck.

In the end is a sad story, keep your money away from Paxton kits, or at least when they offer a real and completed Kit for Stable power!

I will come back tomorrow

Thanks

DJ
 

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I installed one of the 1st kits. My dyno pulls ranged from a 1st pull of 622 rwhp next was 638.5 and the next was 628.5 all in less than 1/2 hr. I would make sure that the water pump for the intercooler is flowing correctly with no air in it. Then I would also check the temp of the water flowing thru the after cooler. The kit I got had a crap diagram the hose routing only because I had installed so many kits on vipers did I figure out how it was suppose to be routed. But your air intake temp doesn't look like it is climbing may be something else causing the loss.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Does anyone could give a precise diagram?

The system is an inline pump one, water flows in series,(deposit, pump, heat core, then back to deposit) is it totally important to check the water pump flow, and its flowing, as seen on the dyno pulls the IAT increase (normal on most supercharger systems) drops a 7-10%, but once we reach 200F it drops 25%!!

We will be still at it, tomorrow I will have more finding from our loggings on the dyno

Thanks for all the coments, BTW Mike did your water temp got beyon 200F on any of your pulls? that will be really interesting to share for me, what year model is your truck? knock sensors on that efi approach?

DJ
 

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DJWR said:
Does anyone could give a precise diagram?

The system is an inline pump one, water flows in series,(deposit, pump, heat core, then back to deposit) is it totally important to check the water pump flow, and its flowing, as seen on the dyno pulls the IAT increase (normal on most supercharger systems) drops a 7-10%, but once we reach 200F it drops 25%!!

We will be still at it, tomorrow I will have more finding from our loggings on the dyno

Thanks for all the coments, BTW Mike did your water temp got beyon 200F on any of your pulls? that will be really interesting to share for me, what year model is your truck? knock sensors on that efi approach?

DJ
can you see what the timing is doing thru out the pull? the ecu may be changing the timing based upon tempature.-what is the program you have for the controller, maybe have one of us email you a different program, and install that into your piggy back controller. i believe you have a soft ware issue/timing
 

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does anyone know if the stock knock sensors are working properly, with the addition of the Novi? Ford disabled the sensors on the Lightning because of the turbulance from the factory blower. the Novi could create twice the turbulance
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks

We´ll we have something curious.

I have seen on other dodges (grand cherokee) milenium and such with knock sensors, problems regarding the noise increase to the supercharger etc. It can´t be in this case, because it is producing "good" power on a cold (below 200F) truck, the noise is not that temperature dependant.

I don´t have an srt10 scanner in order to check the timing curve while on the dyno, it could be a nice idea to have one (please if you know one source send me their link).

The piggy back does not pull timing against water temp, I have spoken to several paxton engineeris and they ensure they only change (retard timing) against boost

Thanks

DJ
 

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DJWR said:
Thanks

We´ll we have something curious.

I have seen on other dodges (grand cherokee) milenium and such with knock sensors, problems regarding the noise increase to the supercharger etc. It can´t be in this case, because it is producing "good" power on a cold (below 200F) truck, the noise is not that temperature dependant.

I don´t have an srt10 scanner in order to check the timing curve while on the dyno, it could be a nice idea to have one (please if you know one source send me their link).

The piggy back does not pull timing against water temp, I have spoken to several paxton engineeris and they ensure they only change (retard timing) against boost

Thanks

DJ
incoming air temp, and what type of program are you running? have you seen a map of the cells for timing, fuel etc? are the cells broke down into 250 or 500 rpm increments?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Paxton offer a simple fuel approach to the new demand, increasing the fuel pressure to dangerous 100 PSI on full boost.

AS for timing the split second timing controller box will retard timing based on boost as well, linear mode, with no extra compensations or changes for IAT or Water temp, this is What I am told from Paxton techs. I am not sure about this as I can´t have a dattalog screen on my eyes telling me the truth about possible knocking(recorded by stock system at 205F)/ignition timing modification (retarding)

A obd scanner for this PCM will be a good beggining, to bad is just a new truck and its not available trough local dodge dealers

Thanks

DJ
 

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Discussion Starter #15
So did anyone with a 2005 install this kit his truck?

Still need some more feedback from you guys runing this kit on 2005

Thanks

DJ
 

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DJWR said:
Paxton offer a simple fuel approach to the new demand, increasing the fuel pressure to dangerous 100 PSI on full boost.

AS for timing the split second timing controller box will retard timing based on boost as well, linear mode, with no extra compensations or changes for IAT or Water temp, this is What I am told from Paxton techs. I am not sure about this as I can´t have a dattalog screen on my eyes telling me the truth about possible knocking(recorded by stock system at 205F)/ignition timing modification (retarding)

A obd scanner for this PCM will be a good beggining, to bad is just a new truck and its not available trough local dodge dealers

Thanks

DJ
Please enlighten me as to what is dangerous about 100 PSI fuel pressure.
I was in the Fuel Injection business for many years and I do not see why you say 100 PSI is "dangerous". I have a 98 Ford Expedition that has had Vortec Blower since it was new. Vortec uses the same high pressure approach to supply proper fuel to the engine without going to the great expense of a completely new fuel system, This system has been on the truck for 6 years and 110000 miles with no problems. I would like to understand what is "dangerous" about this methodology to fuel management in late model vehicles. Please help me with this................Jack
 

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Have you re-dynoed the truck since the first pull? We have recently completed an 05' SRT Ram and had stellar results. When we did our first pull the Supercharger outlet tube that connected to the cooler, pushed apart. This was not visible until you had boost. Check all conections, they are slippery under the hose, and you can loose boost if the connections seperate. We had a similar problem during our first dyno test. The truck will sound like a semi if hoses are loose or disconnected. Did you measure boost PSI during the dyno pulls, and if so what were the results?
Let us know what you find as I think the solution may be this simple.


Bill Pemberton , with aid of Mark Jorgensen our ACE Performance Coordinator.


Woodhouse Viper and Performance
Blair, Nebraska
402-426-4127

You can also reach us at:

Mark Jorgensen [email protected]

Bill [email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hi Thanks for the reply, we didn´t check the boost pressure by the time, but the installer where with us and he guarantee us 7,5 psi of boost steady and no leaks.

When I was working on the IAT sensor, making some changes to its position (colder or hotter spots, inlet and oulet, downstream and upstream the supercharger) I did remove the TB hose and then I didn´t thighten it well so it poped off, I did realize this very soon as I was watching my fuel pressure gauge, if I am not getting 105 psi and I am not receiving the 7 psi of boost in the manifold.

I will have the truck dynoed tomorrow again, will guarantee if its a 2005 with knock sensors or not, and we will take a look at the engine/pcm behavior with the water temp sensor reading up to 205F (variable resistance clamp method) and inlet air temp downstream the supercharger VS real time detonation and Air fuel ratio

The high pressure mechanical approach its very simple, but as I stated dangerous for a few logical things, it will put more load to standard equipment desgined for 45-50 psi of fuel pressure, from injectors o rings, fuel lines, clamps, fittings etc, the higher pressure will contribute the faster wearing, you will have more chances of getting a bad injector, short fuel pump life, etc. You just need a good fire extinguiser if you get in an accident with fuel (crash, etc) and good fuel system maintenance

Thanks

DJ
 

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DJWR said:
The high pressure mechanical approach its very simple, but as I stated dangerous for a few logical things, it will put more load to standard equipment desgined for 45-50 psi of fuel pressure, from injectors o rings, fuel lines, clamps, fittings etc, the higher pressure will contribute the faster wearing, you will have more chances of getting a bad injector, short fuel pump life, etc. You just need a good fire extinguiser if you get in an accident with fuel (crash, etc) and good fuel system maintenance

Thanks

DJ
I am not an expert, but I smell bullshit. My BS detector is usually right, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. My girlfirend has been doing it all weekend anyways, so what is one more "you're wrong" heaped onto the pile.

If the fuel pressure is related to the SC then it isn't always at 100psi, isn't the pressure directly related to demand. Barring that, if a fuel line ruptors at 40-50psi versus 100psi mathmatically what is the difference in time that it will explode, and/or the distance fuel will SPIT/SPEW/SHOOT somewhere (Jack, come on, $19.00 here on the line if you solve my math problem) :)

BTW, I jacked up my Water pressure from 40psi to 80psi, none of the pipes in my mobile home have busted, going on 10 years now, nor has my toilet shot up from the floor :)

Craig
 

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Craig

hey at least you have a inside crapper in your mobile home

hell we still have an outhouse and it 6 freakin degrees here in Michigan

talk about pressure try to dump with your butt froze to a steel outhouse seat


:rolleyes:

Ok i have been up way way too many straight hours

Goodnite

JD
 
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